Episode #60: Influencers & Sponsorships

DRIVEN: A podcast for modern entrepreneurs. DRIVEN: A podcast for modern entrepreneurs. Influencers & Sponsorships

In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about influencers and perceptions around sponsorship. We’ll wrap up the episode with a weekly actionable tip!


Cassy Joy: You know I would probably think; wow, somebody wants to work with me? They want to pay me? Like, with all of these dollar sign emojis and this {laughs} DM that they’ve sent. Y’all don’t have to take it; it’s not going to be the last person that wants to sponsor your work. And if somebody is out there that is interested, I would recommend; take that energy, and take that flatter, and then go on the offense and go find somebody that you want to work with, and you propose the terms.

Welcome to Driven; a show about business, life, and wellness from two confident, curious women who are pulling back the curtain on what it’s like being an entrepreneur. Each week, join hosts Diane Sanfilippo and Cassy Joy Garcia talk about being your best, showing up for your dreams, and kicking self-doubt to the curb.

Diane is a business whisperer, best-selling author, and plant-hobbyist based in San Francisco. Cassy Joy is the founder of www.FedandFit.com, best-selling author, and casserole enthusiast. She calls San Antonio, Texas, home.

Cassy Joy: In today’s episode we’re going to talk about influencers and perceptions around sponsorship.

Topics:

  1. What’s on my plate [1:05]
  2. Shop Talk: Influencers and Sponsorships [24:36]
  3. Tip of The Week: [1:03:55]

1.  What’s on my plate [1:05]

Diane Sanfilippo: What’s on My Plate. In this segment, we talk about what’s happening in our businesses, and in our lives this week. Cassy, what’s going on in your business and life this week?

Cassy Joy: My first bullet point that I have here is; now what, dot, dot, dot. {laughs} Which is so perfectly describes how I felt yesterday. We turned the book in.

Diane Sanfilippo: Huzzah!

Cassy Joy: That’s so exciting! It’s the most polished. Diane knows this, and anybody out there listening that may have put together a book manuscript in the past; there are levels of evolution for a manuscript. Several drafts. Lots and lots of drafts. And I’m not saying this is the final draft. But it is the most polished manuscript I’ve ever turned in; and, dangit, that feels so good. I just want to pat myself on the back and be like; you are a professional.

Diane Sanfilippo: Do it!

Cassy Joy: {laughing} You know? It’s just; it’s so wonderful. And that’s because we had an editor who was lovely and helped us. But we were sitting around the office yesterday and Amber Golden, our managing editor, rolled her chair back. And she is a Generator by Human Design, the category she falls into. And when she told me that, it was like the most sarcastic shocker response, right?  She rolls her chair over, and she goes; so, anybody else feel like you don’t know what to do with yourself now? {laughs} Because there’s this high and this frequency the you operate in, when you’re working on something that’s that high pressured for so long and it’s so detail oriented, and you just have to think; next, next, next, next level. Because it doesn’t come out for a year. And it’s like; our brand is going to evolve and be elevated in a year. Like, how do we make sure this book exceeds where we’re at then and matches what the audience needs then. It’s just such a big thing to noodle on all day long. And so we were ….

Diane Sanfilippo: And it needs to be so right. Because it’s printed.

Cassy Joy: Yes!

Diane Sanfilippo: It is such a heavy feeling that you’re like; I mean, I would, perhaps slightly different in a cookbook; like, whenever there would be science in my books. I have 1; 2 books that didn’t really have much science. And those were just that slight edge less of anxiety. But explaining science. But to your point; like you’re always reinventing things and presenting new ideas and new ways to do things. And it’s like; will they get it? Will they love it? Will it be, you know, what we need it to be?

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: In that much time. Yeah, that’s kind of scary. But yeah; once it’s printed.

Cassy Joy: There she is.

Diane Sanfilippo: You have to believe what you wrote in there, {laughs} because it’s there!

Cassy Joy: So, we’re going long. I don’t want to call it a Hail Mary, because I have a really good idea of what our audience is really asking us for, and how to elevate that concept. But it’s a real, like, go long. We’re tossing the ball all the way downfield. And so I’m so pumped about it. But now the riddle, and the table turn, is now how do we evolve our content that we have now to be where we want it to be next year. So that’s really exciting.

Our Tuesday feature; we do a get to know Tuesday, is going really well. And, Diane, this is giving me such warm vibes. This comes as probably; the people who know me and I think my work ethic really well, I don’t know if this come as a surprise. But for readers who just don’t know people very intimately online, which we’ll talk about today. I’ve gotten so many notes; wonderful positive notes of folks saying; I’m really impressed by your integrity in following through on this get to know series. Every single week, I’ve seen you show up and offer the same enthusiasm; and I’ve also had some of the folks that we’re working with and we’re featuring their content, just affirm that we’re on the right track with helpful efforts, right? And so it’s just nice to know that, you know, the energy we’re putting behind this, it’s well placed. And it actually helpful. I don’t ever; it does not feel performative on our end, but that doesn’t matter. Like, the perception doesn’t matter of that. The important thing is that we just keep doing the work and try to stay true to who we are. And it’s just nice to know that; I don’t know. That we’re on the right path.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, that it’s landing. 

Cassy Joy: Thank you. That’s it. Those are the words! Yeah. So, Q4 content planning is going on right now for Fed and Fit, and it’s very exciting. And we’re getting back into something that; Fed and Fit has always benefited; really heavily grown in depth with our readers when the only thing we cared about content wise was; what do you need right now from us? When we answer that question, our business blossoms. It’s just, I think, it’s how our business is supposed to work. It’s not necessarily supposed to be; I think you need this. That’s not the relationship I have with our readers.

And so for holiday season this year, with COVID and quarantine and people maybe not traveling to be with friends and loved ones, this holiday season we really want to be able to empower the holiday meals of maybe one person; maybe two people. You know, and help you figure out what’s the easiest way you can still celebrate with food if that’s something you want to do. How do you scale it down, and really feel seen? So for example we’re going to do all of our desserts; we’re going to make them, test them, and photograph them in servings of 2, 4, and 8. So how to really scale everything, and then do a whole menu plan around how to scale your events with effort and number of people. But I’m excited.

Diane Sanfilippo: Love that. That sounds great. To be able to make, like maybe a four-serving dessert, where Scott and I could each have two, and then I’m not left with pie for every meal. {laughs}

Cassy Joy: Yes, exactly!

Diane Sanfilippo: Which, let me say, I will eat the pie.

Cassy Joy: It could be worse. {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: As long as it’s there, I will keep taking a slice. But you know, it’s that; ok. In hindsight I’m always like; ok I wish I didn’t have that pie around here so long. But it was delicious while it lasted. I love that. That’s such a great idea.

Cassy Joy: Right. I mean, my family lives around the corner from us, and we’re lucky enough that we celebrate together like that. But if it were just myself and Austin, I would be making two four-serving pies so that we could try a couple of different ones, and we have a leftover if we want it.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s fun.

Cassy Joy: What do you have going on? Tell me about the shop. Because it’s blue and it’s beautiful. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} So, we’ve been going by almost every evening right after the painters are wrapped up. But it’s been getting darker earlier, so if I don’t go quickly enough. And we have our Beautycounter team call for my team every Tuesday at 5:00 PM Pacific time. So by the time that ends, and then I get myself together, and figure out maybe a bite of food. I’m like; oh shoot, you know, it’s already getting dark now. I think the sun sets right around 7 these days. So anyway, long story short, we drove by this morning, and whoo! I just got a little like, whoo, and my heart kind of jumped. Because it was blue. And I was like; alright! And then also, then it sank just a tiny bit because I was like; I hope that’s primer. {laughs}

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: Because it is not the color. I was like; that is not it. But it is just primer. And; I mean, they know. It will be the same color as this rich; it’s almost like a rich blueberry navy that’s inside. Because it does not have any like green pull; you know, it’s like a more red-blue rich regal navy. So anyway, I’m really excited. I think the first coat might go up today. And the whole inside is now painted. So today we’re recording; the date is September 23. Wow, I’m realizing how close it is. So Friday, the woman who is painting the mural, she may get started on Friday. So now I’m realizing I need to check back in with her on any notes and some additional paint colors and things like that. But that is going; I think everyone’s just going to really love that. It’s really fun. I don’t know; it’s just going to add a lot of life to the store, even before the product comes in. Because right now it’s like a white and navy box.

But yeah, it’s really exciting. And I’ve been kind of; I don’t know, I’ve felt kind of like a hamster in a wheel for the last few weeks because we couldn’t do anything for so long, just waiting for the painting to happen. All the shelves and some furniture have been on order for quite some time. I ordered some things from Crate and Barrel and CB2 and I’m just waiting {laughs}. Just waiting for all this stuff to arrive. But, you know, obviously until this painting is done, we couldn’t really install any of that. And a bunch of the shelves are actually going to be attached to the walls. So we had to have all this painting done first.

So that’s just really exciting. I don’t know. It’s feels like; it definitely doesn’t feel like the stress and anxiety of writing a book, but having this big project and this new thing to focus on. I mean, I honestly don’t know how I would be doing right now if I did not make this relatively hair-brained decision to get into this. And you know, this will be a commitment for me for a minimum of two years. Like, my lease is two years, to be reevaluated after that.

But I think I would be really struggling a lot more with perhaps; I don’t know about more anxiety, but definitely some more depressive tendencies; not to bring things down on the podcast. But I really struggle with that. I need a project. So; back to our Human Design discussion, as a Manifestor, I need to be bringing things to life and you know driving the train forward really hardcore. And when I don’t have something. Like for the last, I don’t know, maybe almost a year, I’ve actually felt very stuck in this Generator vibe where we’ve been refining the cycles of how we do content and put out in our newsletter and how we just week to week. Like, so much of what we do is this weekly thing. Whether it’s a week for people to be ordering meals, and then like what were the tallies from last week. Or whether it’s, what are we launching this week for a product or a promotion. It’s just like; every week we kind of have been going through.

But that’s just not where I do best. I don’t excel kind of operating on that weekly churn. It’s just not my thing. But it’s great to have, because when you have people who are working on content or whatever they’re doing together, being able to collaborate on something that people can get very used to that process. I’m sure you know with just creating content, that’s necessary. But as their leader and as this, you know, creator vibe, I need that big thing. So this has been really helpful.

I also am feeling really positive about breathing some life into the community. So Union Street here in San Francisco; I have actually lived on or around Union Street since the first time I moved here in 2000. My very first apartment, the address was 1499 Union Street, which is only, I don’t know, about 10 blocks down from where this shop is. So it feels like this is my neighborhood. So it’s wild.

Cassy Joy: Aww. I didn’t know that. 

Diane Sanfilippo: Right? Yeah, it’s really wild. I have such intimate knowledge of that street. I know a lot of business owners on the street. You know; I didn’t think I did, but I probably know personally, whether or not we’re like friends, at least three shop owners on the street. Probably more. So it’s kind of wild. Yeah.

Cassy Joy: It’s like a real Mr. Rogers situation. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I know. Yeah. It feels; this is the weird part. It feels like; I’m sure people don’t know, like me in real life, like I’m like a neighborhood salesperson. Like I used to work at the Lululemon that’s down the street from where my shop will be. I have worked out at the gym, you know, on the street for years, and many other gyms in the area. It’s like; I know a lot of people, if they’re still there. {laughs} I did 20 years ago. But it’s been 20 years almost on and off of basically being in this neighborhood. So I don’t know. It feels really good, I feel happy about being able to put something positive in that space. Hearing that people; the painters told me, people are all lie; what is it? Poking their heads in. They’re just so dying to know what it’s going to be.

So that just kind of warms my heart. It feels; I don’t know. It just feels a bit of a new chapter that; who knew? And yeah. Thanks in no small part to your motivation. And I always think it’s funny when people come tell us how we inspire and motivate them or whatever it is, because we’re like; I didn’t mean to do that. You know, like; you’re just doing your thing, but it really did light me up and think; like, I need this other physical space. I need to do something different or be somewhere else. And then it just evolved into something totally different. And for years you and I have been talking about how I’m like; I don’t know what’s next. Like your question; now what? And now it’s like I have this whole new thing to just kind of pour myself into.

And I have to remember, whenever I get stuck in that place of that sort of emotional creating churn of what will it be, what will be next. It’s not comfortable for me to not have big ideas or vision. Because I feel like I very often do have something like that. But I have to now recognize that if I don’t, I just have to keep going. Just keep moving. Just keep swimming. You know? Because it will come, and I have to just trust that process. But being in the thick of the not knowing it’s so uncomfortable, but that is just part of it. Like, I have to wait until the right thing pops up and my gut is like; yes, we’re doing this now.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: And my dear husband is like; I guess we’re doing this now.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Here I am, along for the ride. You know?

Cassy Joy: Oh, he’s the best. That’s so wonderful. I mean, just as your friend, I am so excited for you because this feels like such a grounding; I mean, literally grounded. But it feels like such a grounding adventure. I’m getting that vibe.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, it feels that way. And you know, people ask us all the time about, like; oh, where else would you live? And for years, Scott and I have had a conversation, like, where else would we live? And we could never come up with anything. Plus, he’s building a chiropractic practice here. You know, and you’re kind of always building that. Because, you know, you have patients. And he gets people better too quickly.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m like; honey. Simmer on the high skill level of your, you know, therapeutic touch there. But, you know, we’re not about to just pick up and go somewhere else when he’s really building a practice. So this is really me putting down some roots. And I love it here. And like I said, I just love the idea of contributing positively to this street where, for years, even long before COVID, the street has had so many vacancies and retail shops. And I think, you know, we can talk about this in another episode. But, you know, the trend of what’s happening in retail is not what it was, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago. Or I should say 20, 30 years ago. {laughs}

When, you know, I’ve worked in retail; I joke, like, I’ve worked in retail my whole life. Obviously, the last 10 years I did not work in retail. I’ve been doing other things. But before that, most of the jobs that I had done were retail. And I feel like I have a very intimate connection with what works and what doesn’t. But also watching the market, some companies have sustained a very obvious retail downturn, and then some have reinjected life into what has been a downturn. Companies like The Sill or like Beautycounter that do these pop-up stores, where it’s like a reverse of what happened in the 90s where we were all like; oh, do they have a web site? And now we’re like; oh, do they have a store?

So I get to do that reverse thing where I’m bringing my brand to life in a way that allows people to have an experience. And so, that’s kind of what I’m looking forward to. Is like, this making a real thing. Which is why we love books so much, as hard as they are. It’s a think I get to hold. It’s a think, and I get to walk in there and create an experience with the customers. And, I mean, I will sell spices to people coming in. Because {laughs} if I don’t have other work to do, I’m like; I don’t need a part time person, I will be the one selling you your spices.

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Who better than me? So yeah, I’m really excited. Super fun. And a couple of other things that are going on. We launched our new meals collaboration. So I can’t remember; maybe we had just launched it last week, but it’s officially out there. We did meals with two of my friends; amazing women who have been longtime supporters of Balanced Bites meals so I kind of tapped their shoulders first. But will probably be looking to do more of this, because it’s just really exciting to not only have new flavors come into the meals, but to be able to share more broadly about some of my friends and peers who are doing great work and who are amazing creators, and who come from different cultural backgrounds than I do. And I think that’s really important.

And to your point about your Tuesday shares; Tuesday features, this is part of the commitment that I wanted to make to; I mean, I’ve always been this person who wants to share the stage with anyone who’s my peer and colleague. I don’t find it fun to do all this stuff alone, even though I’m the sole owner of my business. And part of that doesn’t just mean with my team, the people who work with me on different projects. It means with my peers. I mean, when we went on book tour; I mean, I would so much rather go on a book tour with someone else, you know, than by myself.

So this just feels like a really fun way to do that collaboration but to also lift up some other voices, and paying special attention to not just including constantly other white creators. And it just; these are actually probably two of the women who have supported Balanced Bites meals. There’s probably a handful of you guys who’ve been there as well, but like the strongest, I would say, since the very beginning. So it was kind of a no brainer. But I’m super excited about that.

I mentioned last week we have some new stuff coming seasonally for spices. I say spices, but they’re not spices, really. {laughs} But they’re coming very soon. And I posted something last week on social media. I’ve been tastings some new products that are coming; snacky things. So they’ll be coming soon. I guess I can hint in the way of granolas. We had kicked things off with this collaboration, but we will be moving to a copacking situation.

So, you know, I’m happy to shine a light on how some of this work for people. But not every company that sells products is also a manufacturer. It’s amazing when they are. But usually when they’re a manufacturer, they actually will need to be also a copacker. Because if you’re going to fund a manufacturing plant, it’s so expensive to do that, that you need to maximize using all of that equipment as many hours a day, as many days a week as possible. And sometimes there might be a manufacturer who has a strong brand representation but maybe, you know, they’re not maximizing what they need to make to sell for their own brand to use up the time. You know, they don’t need to make more. So, that’s why some people who are manufacturers who have a brand that’s actually sold in stores are also copackers.

This is actually really common; just as a side note, all of these Trader Joe’s products that we find that we’re like; I’m pretty sure this is Simple Mills cookie mix. Like, wherever Simple Mills is making their stuff, they’re copacking it for Trader Joe’s, too. They’re literally making the same exact thing, and putting it in a different box. And there could be copacking situations, which is what I’m working on, where they’re my recipes. Like, this is all under NDA, like, you know it’s going to be obvious who’s making our granola; that’s fine to me. There might be some situations where you’re like; it’s all hush, hush. I don’t really care because I am very proud of this connection.

But it’s something where, like, these are my formulations, my recipes. It’s not somebody else’s product that’s just getting my name on it. These are my actual recipes with totally new ideas and all of that. So, anyway, really excited. So we have this one collaboration that’s out now. It will get rebranded just for our own brand. And then we’ll have two new flavors coming at some point in the next several weeks. We’ll be launching that in beta packaging. So, I like to think back to when Siete Foods was called Must Be Nutty, for anyone who remembers. And we would get this clear bag with a sticker on it, with almond flour tortillas in it. So it will be a clear bag with a sticker until we have our actual bags printed. I mean, that’s just what they happen to be. But I’m like; well if they do it.

Cassy Joy: Aww, I love that.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I can do it. And I love the affection I have for remembering when, right? So I think about that. And I’m like; do we wait to launch it until we have the bags, which take way longer to print. No.

Cassy Joy: Go ugly early.

Diane Sanfilippo: Go ugly early. So we just go ugly. And I actually, as a business owner, I recognize the affinity for the brand that it builds in the people who are like; I remember having that clear bag. I ordered it back then, and I was in. I was an original customer. You know? I love it myself. So I’m like; you know what? People will love that they got in on it before it was all polished and pretty. So, yeah. I’ll save other updates for another time.  Because that’s a lot.

2.  Shop Talk: Influencers and Sponsorships [24:36]

Cassy Joy: Shop Talk. In this segment, we are going to talk about influencers and perceptions around sponsorship.

Diane Sanfilippo: Should we define some terms?

Cassy Joy: {laughs} Some rules of engagement? So Diane and I were chatting about this. And I brought half of this idea to the table today. And we thought that it would be a really great conversation. I want to, just to give y’all some sponsoring thought, and then we’ll see how this blossoms. Diane and I don’t have any notes on today’s topic, because this is just; and this is the hard; man, what, we’re 60 episodes in, and now we’re like; now we’re getting to it. Because we just wanted to find some sort of a topic that we were curious about, or that we found perplexing or interesting, and then just talk about it. Talk it through. So that’s what we’re going to do today.

I found it really interesting that sponsorship perception is different between; I’ll just tell y’all my sponsoring thoughts. My sponsorship perception; why do we think it’s adorable when Snoop Dogg does a commercial for Corona Beer, right? We watch that on TV, and I found myself being like; oh how charming. {laughs} That Snoop Dogg is just so wonderful, and if I drank beer, I just might go grab one. And then I was strolling on Instagram, though, and I pass somebody, and there’s differences of accounts. But let’s say I come across somebody whose content I have enjoyed for years. They have benefited my life. I’ve learned things from them. And then I see that they’re doing a sponsorship with a certain wine brand. And I’m like; eww. Like; I don’t know why, but it rubs me the wrong way. And it does; and I read, you read the comments, and you see that that’s not an uncommon feeling.

So why is it, Diane, that we find a celebrity sponsorship; even if it’s a celebrity on Instagram, like Kate Hudson I think just did a sponsored thing with a vodka company. Why is that adorable, but we get an icky feeling when it’s somebody who we consider to be an everyday person, not a celebrity?

Diane Sanfilippo: I like how you’re asking me this, because I’m also like; I don’t know.

Cassy Joy: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: No, really. I don’t know. I think part of it can be expectation that people have about how people show up. I think part of it can be, you know, they’re not sure how that brand relates to what they do. So I think, you know, for some people it’s like; is this out of left field? Did I know you to love wine? Yes or no. And how does that come across, you know, the frequency. How many sponsorships does somebody have? I think all of that can actually affect it.

But I also think there’s are these buckets that people put celebrities in versus everyday people. And the weird thing is, we’re constantly influencing our friends and family. Telling people about what we love, and what we eat. Oh, I found this thing at the grocery store, and I picked up these pants at Target. Whatever it is, we’re constantly doing it. But I don’t know; I mean, honestly, as a person, I don’t always react that well to celebrity endorsements on television or wherever. Because I’m {laughs} I can be a judgey B.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: This show is not explicit, so I will put it that way. Because often I’m like; well, I guess they’re not earning their living from their actual career, so here’s an endorsement.

Cassy Joy: Well, I do feel that way.

Diane Sanfilippo: I mean, that’s a very judgey way to look at it.

Cassy Joy: Yeah. I do feel that way about; I don’t know what it is about perfume commercials rub me the wrong way constantly. Like, I’m thinking about Johnny Depp digging in the desert. Have you seen this commercial? I don’t even know the name of the perfume. But he’s like in the middle of the desert, or some dry land with a shovel slinging sand over his shoulder to bury a necklace, and then it’s like, “Be fabulous like Johnny.” And I just; that is odd.

Diane Sanfilippo: So I think maybe people just; I think part of it is not understanding how folks who are on social media for example actually need to earn a living, if that’s what their job is. I think part of it really is that; not understanding that; y’all are following along for free. So someone needs to keep the lights on. And do you want it to be you? Do you want to pay to be here? Or do you want to let someone else pay for you to be there. Right? So I think part of it is that; not understanding, literally, just how it works.

I think part of it is about expectation, and the expectation we put on people. And then I think part of it might be; because, here’s the thing. We don’t always have that response.

Cassy Joy: No.

Diane Sanfilippo: We don’t always think; ugh. Sponsored content. You know? Sometimes we’re like; you know, it makes sense. It’s a product that you would expect that person to share about. And I’m like; good for you, finally getting paid to share about that thing that you have loved or love or whatever it is.

Cassy Joy: It does make sense. I wonder, though, does it make sense because we understand how the business works a little bit more? And listeners here probably also understand how the business works a little bit more. Are we the minority in that equation? And, at the same time, when I scroll and I see, even as a content creator who works really, really hard to only take sponsored content that is authentic to the brand that I would’ve paid for with my own money, you know? Even when I pass a clip that says hashtag ad as the first characters in the description, I look at it with a different lens. I don’t trust it as much.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. Well I think part of it is, actually, unfortunately, I don’t like the way that that law is. I think it forces creators to put the fact that it’s an ad before their actual endorsement. That being said, when you watch a commercial on television, you know it’s a commercial. You know; there’s no surprise. Unless it’s product placement in the show. Someone is using an Apple laptop. Unless its covered with a sticker, it’s probably a paid placement. Nobody is getting their brand exposure without paying for it, you know, on TV shows. So I think it really depends.

I think the biggest; the biggest, biggest, biggest factor; and this is maybe your question originally; is like, why do people respond negatively to it? I think there are two things going on. One, I think if the product is misaligned with the brand, or it’s out of left field. I think that’s just going to trigger that response, no matter what. Because you’re like; what even is this? Like if all of a sudden, I started promoting Activewear; yeah, people know that I exercise. But, like, I have literally never, almost never, talked about Activewear, at least not in the last five years, as a thing. You know what I mean? That specific topic. It’s not really a thing I talk about. So I think part of it is, it feels misaligned with the brand. Which frankly, I think the onus is on the creator to not do that. To not have that abrupt change of whatever. Like, if you decide you want to start working with a brand that you actually love, it’s your responsibility to learn how to properly plant the seed so that it doesn’t come out of left field. Or know that that’s what the response is going to be.

The other thing, and I lost my train of thought and I should have written it down. {laughs} Oh, this is it. I do think that, unfortunately, to your point about us knowing how the business works and how a social media works and all of that. I think that unfortunately people see content creators almost with too much familiarity. And there is so much access, and so much of a look into your life. And I notice this is very different with some people versus others. Like, there are some people that I see show up on social media. And yes, they like share their “life”, but it’s all so curated and intentional. Like, they’re always up and dressed and have a little makeup on in the morning, and like at their desk, and like; here’s my day. And I’m like; really? That’s not it to me. But it is really professional, like, all the way through. And they post a ton of sponsored stuff. And I almost feel like, to the person who is there, a consistency in a high frequency of shared content that is promoted, just makes it more normalized. And I don’t want to out anyone, but there’s just one person I can think of in particular who, you know, has a very large following. Like, many hundreds of thousands of followers. And this is the way that the account is all the time. It is just very consistently this constant, weaving in of brands in a very different way than I might talk about it, for example.

So I think that that can be jarring, because people feel like this familiarity, and then it feels weird when you look; ah, now it’s an ad.

Cassy Joy: That makes sense.

Diane Sanfilippo: Do you know what I mean?

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think that the people creating the content, honestly, I think we need to do better at learning psychology and learning how to create a more professional energy around things. Because we set the expectation. Do you know what I mean? And so that’s hard, because a lot of us started these accounts in a different way, and then they kind of transitioned. But I think the same way somebody who, for years and years, might blog and never have ads on their website and never sell anything, and then one day they realize; oh. I have to pay the bills, and I’m not working that job anymore that I had because now this is my fulltime job. And you have to figure out how to ask people for money. You know? So I think we as the creators also have to figure out how to make that adjustment. But how does it land and what are the perceptions? I mean, I do think that is complicated because social media, people remember the social part and they forget the media part.

Cassy Joy: Ooh, yes. Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: You know what I mean? Like, it’s basically television now.

Cassy Joy: Yes, it is.

Diane Sanfilippo: And so, I’m like; if you thought that your content creators could be here talking to you 24/7 without somebody paying for it.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: You know.

Cassy Joy: That was the illusion.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s why it feels that way.

Cassy Joy: Yes. Maybe that’s it. Maybe we are just kicking and screaming because the illusion is broken, fractured for a minute, that this person, that this is just their life. That they just live their life so that we can consume it and watch it.

I also wonder if it’s also a money mindset issue. Like, because if it’s a content creator who is just showing their life, and it’s not a celebrity; it’s not a movie star, right? It’s someone who we would might consider to be much more every day, you know, then does it also boil down to; do we think that celebrities, movie stars, it’s OK for them to make a bunch of money, you know, off of an ad. But as soon as what we would consider an everyday person makes money off of a wine ad, does it bring up feelings of jealousy; of, who are you to earn money off of something like this? You’re just like me. You know? I wonder if that is an element at play.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s interesting.

Cassy Joy: And if it is an element at play, how do we as content creators work through that with our audience? {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I hadn’t thought of it that way.

Cassy Joy: That was something that came up. Because I brought this up with the Fed and Fit team the other day. And we saw this one account posted a sponsored content on wine. And; I’ll tell you. It was Emily Shuman. I follow her; Cupcakes and Cashmere. I’ve been a; she’s an old school blogger. Adorable, I’ve learned so much from her about how to tease out flowers. Wonderful recipes. And she has her own Instagram account called Emily Shuman. And she did an ad for a Kim Crawford wine, I think it was. Clearly not sponsored content here, y’all. {laughing}

But she did an ad for them, and I can tell, as an also content creator, she worked really hard to make it seem as natural as possible. Granted, it was posted on a day that the wildfires were especially bad in California. She lives in California. And readers were like; how is the air quality there so good? Because, you know, they were out on the patio. And sponsored content typically has to be turned in in advanced, and get approved, and then you’re committed to a timeline. And maybe this is a learning opportunity for content creators to be able to tell brands; hey. I need an exit clause. Or I need an adjust the schedule clause in case of natural disasters, for example, so that I can move this or adjust the copy if needed. But she posted that, and got just a bunch of comments that were not very flattering. And not to say that she executed this whole thing perfectly, but I didn’t think it was that bad.

So it just makes me wonder like; how can we, is it a money mindset thing? Is it just influencer marketing, which is what all the PR companies call it? Influencer marketing is where these dollars are going. Is it that consumers are not adjusted to understanding how to consume influencer marketing yet? I don’t know. It’s so interesting.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm. I mean, I think that we’re like obviously; I don’t know what’s going to happen with social media in the next 5 to 10 years. You know, this whole thing came to a head in the last decade. So I’m really curious to see where it goes. But I really; I don’t know. I mean, I think part of it is, to your point about needing to turn in content early and needing to get it approved. I mean; let’s just start with the fact that this is the reason I have never done actual sponsored content where a brand is like; here is what we want. And here’s what we’ll pay you. {laughs}

Cassy Joy: It’s a nightmare. It’s a nightmare. I mean…

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m like; I can barely do the things I want to do, let alone the thing somebody else tells me they want me to do. So, let’s just start right there.

Cassy Joy: Diane and have I talked about this before. That’s why in 2020 we stopped taking those kinds of sponsors. Because that’s not the game we want to play. But, that’s in large part how influencer marketing works.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. So I think part of this; and this is tricky, so I’m just saying this is like in a perfect world. I think part of this comes down to also being a smarter, better influencer. “Influencer”. And I have a whole other line of discussion on influencers, which maybe that will be another episode, too. Because I was getting real ranting before the show, but now we’re 40 minutes in, so I don’t think I’m going to get into that topic today. But I will write it down. And this notion of, like, influencers in finger quotes, and what it means when someone calls you an influencer. I don’t know.

It would be like if someone said that you were a mom and just put you in a mom bucket and forgot all this other depth of who you are as a person; not that that’s not huge and valuable and a huge part of who you are and that you don’t have that title proudly. But it’s like; hello.

Cassy Joy: I am more; yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Anyone. But I do think it’s also a bit of being a smart influencer and; I don’t know. I guess I’m flipping the script to say; we started talking about influencers and perceptions around sponsorships that the customer person out there, etc., has. But I do think the onus is on the influencer. I think the responsibility ultimately is on the person who is sharing, to make sure that it is genuine content. That it’s being shared properly. That you’re extremely aware and sensitive. And if you’re going to end up working with a brand that doesn’t trust you to the point that they should be trusting you, then you might get caught in this kind of situation.

And I’m not saying that everyone who is in influencer has that kind of power or privilege in the situation. Because you might really need that money, and maybe you’re just a little stuck. Right? So I’m not judging it. I’m just saying, I still do want; even, I can understand it. I fully understand it. I still do want influencers, like you said; maybe it’s a matter of a clause or something to protect yourself to say; I know my audience, and I need to protect my audience first and foremost. So if the timing doesn’t end up feeling right on this, I need to hold the ability to adjust when and how I share this. Because losing any amount of their trust when I can foresee that it might happen is not worth it to me.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, the cost is too high.

Diane Sanfilippo: In that moment. Exactly. One of the things I think, too, is if you’re a really valuable influencer; whether you have a large audience, or a very strong ability to convert. Like, I don’t have the largest audience, but I have a strong ability to convert, because I just don’t BS people. I don’t share about things that aren’t great that I don’t really love, and people know that. I think that we give too much power to the brand just because they have the money to think and assume that they know anything better than we do about how to talk to our audience. And that’s one thing that, as somebody who has worked in sales and marketing my entire life, people come at me and they’re like; well, this didn’t convert. I’m like; {laughs}

I remember, I had a broth company that I worked with, and they didn’t think that whenever we did to promote what it was. I think it was a podcast sponsor at one point. And sorry if I’m outing them in hindsight, but whatever. Like, they felt like it wasn’t a strong enough conversion. And I was like; you have no idea what’s converting. Because when I tell someone I like something, they’re buying it at the store. I wouldn’t personally click to buy this broth on the Internet. I’m not interested in doing that, and I don’t expect my listeners to do it either. But I know that when they’re at the store, they’ll say; I remember, I heard about that brand, Diane talked about that. Because they take pictures at the grocery store and show me all the time.

You know? So it was like; I need to just stand my ground and say; ok, well this partnership doesn’t work anymore. Because if you don’t feel you’re getting the value but I know what the value is. So, I know, again, that’s like a bit of a privileged position to be in to be able to say no to something. But then here’s where I go alternatively. Is if you don’t feel like you can have, again, as someone who is going to take a sponsorship, because I know a lot of people listening are business owners, or maybe influencers or want to do sponsored content. If you don’t feel like you have the right reins, you know, to drive or to agree with what this brand is saying, then maybe that approach to monetizing what you do is not the approach for you. And that’s really where I’ve come to. Is that I would rather create content that’s paid content. Obviously now creating products and building a food brand that is like; ok, this is a thing that people can buy that will support my work. And find a different way to monetize.

Cassy Joy: I think that’s fair.

Diane Sanfilippo: But that doesn’t mean that people can’t also do sponsored content. But I really think that if you’re not hitting the nail on the head with authentically sharing. Because people will see through it if you’re grasping at straws to post about something that is not authentic to you. To your point about this wine post. I think that was really more a matter of; it’s a bit tone deaf.

Cassy Joy: The timing, yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yes. And I think that that responsibility is on everyone involved. And I do think that as we need to become more sensitive and aware of what we do and what we say as influencers, even to the point of pulling down the post and apologizing, and then telling the brand; I’m going to post this at a time that’s less sensitive. Like; I’m not saying that’s what this person should do I’m just thinking out loud; we don’t need to just always defend things that ended up being hurtful or potentially harmful or we realized in hindsight were a little bit tone deaf. We can apologize, and say thank you for letting me see that in a different way, and then move on.

But anyway. I don’t know if that’s really addressing this perception that the audience has, but I do feel really strongly about if people are perceiving things in a certain way then that’s our job as the creator.

Cassy Joy: Control what you can.

Diane Sanfilippo: To control what we can, and to share more thoughtfully. And to even, again to your point, start that conversation with the way that we talk to the brand about what’s happening.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Because if the brand is going to pay us, they have to trust us to know our audience or whatever.

Cassy Joy: I want to double down on something that you said a little bit ago, because I have a feeling that if you’re listening to this and you, like Diane said; you are looking to take on sponsors for some of your content. Maybe this would be a new revenue stream for you. I really want to a double down on something. You do not have to sell whatever they’re asking for you to sell. You really don’t. You can always come back with a pivot offer.

For example, when I was a younger blogger, my e-mail list is what people wanted to sponsor. And I was so flattered; so flattered that anybody would want to pay me money for something. Even if it’s a brand I’m aligned with. Right? Because I of course still had that integrity back then. A brand I’m aligned with. I think also it was a different bone broth company. But would want to sponsor my entire newsletter, send out a dedicated newsletter. And they would pay X amount of dollars. And I did it once, y’all. And even though it was a brand I was aligned with, it didn’t feel right to me. But I was like; but I’m still so flattered. Like the being flattered, and also this is a brand I like, kind of eclipsed the fact that something felt off in my gut about this.

I did the sponsorship, and I think I lost at that point in time 20% of my e-mail subscribers. Unsubscribed. And it’s a lesson I learned once. And the stakes weren’t as high as they would be right now. But I couldn’t; I was like, I cannot believe I just made my work that cheap. I cheapened the work that I put into earning the trust of these people, by just taking a $500 sponsorship for an e-mail newsletter at the time.

And so in hindsight, if somebody comes to offer you anything like that, it’s a business decision we made at Fed and Fit that we never do sponsored content in emails. I learned that lesson once. We will never do that. That is a sacred place, only for content and f things that we’re providing our people. And if we have an ask, it’s going to be something that we made and we grew.

And then offer something else. You know, another way that you can collaborate with this business. You don’t have to make; if a company comes to you and offers you; since I started Cassy Joy Garcia’s Instagram account, I said it like she’s a different person.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: Since I started that Instagram account for myself, I started getting all of these DMs from all of these companies who want to collab. “DM me to collab.” Fed and Fit doesn’t get these anymore.

Diane Sanfilippo: Delete. I delete them. When people send them to Balanced Bites.

Cassy Joy: Oh, yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: When “influencers” send them to Balanced Bites; I’m like. Do they think this is going to work?

Cassy Joy: Goodbye. Absolutely not. And we know better. But if I were brand new, and that was; what an exciting offer! You know, I would probably think; wow, somebody wants to work with me? They want to pay me? With all of these dollar sign emojis and this DM that they’ve sent. Y’all don’t have to take it. It’s not going to be the last person that wants to sponsor your work. And if somebody is out there that is interested, I would recommend, take that energy and take that flattery and go on the offense, and go find somebody that you want to work with and you propose the terms.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that it’s very alluring to see those dollar signs for something that feels like; ooh, it’s just social media. Or it’s an e-mail; one e-mail, whatever. And I think the reality is, as the creator, you have to be intensely protective of your audience.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: And I’m with you; those dedicated emails. I haven’t ever sent one. And listen, when I say those things, I never say it to be like; I’m better than anyone because I’ve never done it. It’s more like; I’m honestly just more judgey and more skeptical than most people of everything. So, like, I say no to almost everything to my own detriment, I’m sure of, many times. So let’s just start with that foundation. That it’s like; I have so many walls up that I’m like; oh heck no! You know what I mean? Like, I say no to almost everything.

But yeah. We have definitely done brands that I love where it’s part of an email. I’m always like; I’m not going to send a dedicated e-mail. Because that’s not what my audience is used to getting. And so we can take this and translate it into what people do on social media. Think about; what is my audience used to getting? What do they know from me? What are the topics that I typically talk about and am passionate about, and excited about, etc., etc.

So, to your point, Cassy, about pivoting and offering something different to a younger Cassy, we could have said; well, maybe we could do a podcast interview, and we talk about the benefits of bone broth. Which, I’m sure you’ve done that, as well, at some point in time. But that could be something where you could say; this is sponsored.

And I also think this is a really interesting thing. I personally think there are places where sponsorship doesn’t feel as weird.

Cassy Joy: Like a podcast.

Diane Sanfilippo: Like a podcast. And I think that’s, again, part of the nature of the social media, social versus media. Like, this is understood to be media. This is content, this is audio content. And you know Instagram these microcontent posts has always felt very social. It has not felt like real media, in the same way. And so I do think that people feel really differently about it. Like, if you have a blog post where you’re featuring recipes, and then it’s a product, and it’s sponsored content and you share that in a blog post, it just lands differently. And maybe it’s because the user seeks it out and maybe it’s because they don’t feel like they came for one thing and got another. I don’t know.

Cassy Joy: That makes sense.

Diane Sanfilippo: We can consider that and unpack that more. Maybe because they don’t understand that, despite the fact that opening the account on Instagram, for example, is free, the time and energy to create the content there is not. Whereas they can understand that; hey, if you’re going to produce a podcast, there might be more involved with something that’s more involved there. I don’t know. I don’t know what that perception is. But maybe because a lot of podcasts are sponsored, and a lot of what they consume on social isn’t, that when it is it feels jarring.

Cassy Joy: That makes a lot of sense.

Diane Sanfilippo: And again, you know I do, again, put that onus on the creator to know your audience.

Cassy Joy: I like that challenge. I like that call to the creator to elevate and rise to the challenge. That’s actually something that came up the other day, because I brought that up, and I said; why is it not weird when I hear a sponsorship on a podcast? That doesn’t rub me the wrong way at all. I’m like; you go get that money from Casper mattress.

Diane Sanfilippo: But it has. There are a lot of people who are like; or people, again, don’t know their audience well enough to know what’s the limit of how many and how long they’re going to be.

Cassy Joy: That makes sense. Yes, there is definitely a tipping point.

Diane Sanfilippo: The limit does exist.

Cassy Joy: The limit does exist, exactly. There is a point where it’s too much and it becomes icky. But, could it also be from a consumer perspective a barrier of entry It seems higher in a podcast. So this whole, again, going back to money mindset. Who are you to make money off of this thing? I can create content on Instagram. Right? I post beautiful photos. I have a preset. I can make food and take pictures of it. Who are you to earn money off of something that I’m not earning money off of?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yes, I’m with you now.

Cassy Joy: But on a podcast; even though you and I know how easy it is, actually. If you wanted to just get real scrappy, you could start a podcast today. And just get something up. Right? Now.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} It’s easy to start. It’s not easy to be consistent and get it done. But yes.

Cassy Joy: Yes. To put together a polished show, y’all listening to this probably know exactly what we’re talking about. There’s a difference. This is a very polished show. We have a fabulous editor; hey G; Genny. Like, you know there’s a difference. But the perception is, is that the barrier to entry into the podcast world is higher. And so therefore, you go get your sponsorship money. And then maybe even to circle this all the way back to my Snoop Dogg and my Kate Hudson thoughts, is; the barrier to entry into celebrity land and movie star land is even higher than that. And so it feels like; is it, we as consumers can stomach sponsorships, when our perceptions to the barrier to entry matches. Does that make sense? The higher the barrier to entry, the more we can tolerate them making money.

Diane Sanfilippo: It does make sense. I think that’s part of it. I think part of it is what I was saying, where there’s too much familiarity. And with a celebrity, there’s a lot of distance; even if they are using social media, and it feels like you can access them but you can’t. I think it’s also an expectation. I think it’s also; you know, we expect celebrity endorsements of things, for whatever reason. It’s been happening for, you know, many decades. I don’t know when that actually started. If we went back in time, but looking at ads back in like the forties and fifties. I used to collect Life Magazines from like the mid to late forties into the fifties. And I don’t know what all the celebrities were, but the ads were not celebrity based. They were very much, like, this family is just like yours, and they eat these canned peas. {laughs} I’m like; it was very much more what’s familiar and seeing yourself. And now they’re so much of this aspirational thing.

So I think there’s a lot of factors at play. I don’t think it’s just one thing. I think level of professionalism comes in. What’s the stage that you set for the type of content that you share. I think the expectation of what’s happening there. I think whether or not the audience feels blindsided, or they expect it. I think, to your point, that barrier to entry, I do think that’s totally relevant and valid. I think there’s also; I just think it’s the other person’s stuff most of the time. But I do still think we need to manage the way that we’re going to handle that. And we have to both understand how it may land, but we have to be ok with push back on it.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: We have to own the decision of; yep, I feel really confident in what this post is.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Not in a defensive way. But, you know, when we’ve taken sponsors for the podcast, whether it was early on for this show or for the Balanced Bites podcast, for maybe the first, I don’t know how long, the first six months to a year we maybe didn’t have sponsors and then further in we did. And for a very long time, we had some of the same sponsors. Because we were like; if they want to keep sponsoring and we love them, then we will keep their sponsorship, you know, for a really long time. But those were brands that we loved. You know. We had cash and product sponsorship, like a division, because we loved the products so much that we were like; we will take some of this in product. You know, and that’s ok. Because we love it that much.

Anyway. So I think that it’s a complicated issue. And I think sometimes people may have to dabble to learn what’s right and wrong for their audience, for the way that they’re going to share things. How much say they can or should get in the conversation of what’s expected and what’s the deliverable and how much it’s being sponsored for and all of that, and what the expectation is on the other side of it. What kind of return on investment or conversions does that brand expect to see? I think those are all factors that we need to consider. And hopefully {laughs} in terms of the people listening to this show; hopefully people who see sponsored content can consume it with some grace, and understand that if people didn’t need to take sponsored content to cover expenses. And I’m not saying that we do it for brands that we don’t love. I know you guys have a few really thoughtful and intentional brands that you work with, and that’s a different thing. It’s a much longer-term relationship.

But these are businesses. And we’re paying bills. You know what I mean? And so sometimes it’s a matter of; well, if I already love this brand and they want to pay me to talk about it; yes, thank you very much. And we will do that. And here’s what we’ll deliver, and great. But I just think we need to kind of have a little bit of grace around it and not get so angry. Like who even cares? Double tap the picture and move on.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Be nice. You know?

Cassy Joy: I like that. I like that generous assumption, you know. If you’ve consumed…

Diane Sanfilippo: Because when we post it; if you post that, you’re like; I know they’re going to be annoyed. You already have that anxiety. Like, I had to put hashtag ad in there, legally. And nobody wants to have to write that, but you have to write it.

Cassy Joy: You’re totally right. Yes. I like that. I like that our call is to the creator to rise to the challenge and I also think that as consumers we can show some more grace. If you have consumed any sort of useful content; if that content creator has bettered your life in any sort of way before, the generous thing to do is to click like. If you like it, right? You know. Don’t reserve or hold back just because you’re spiteful of the fact that it’s an ad.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s so irritating. And by the way, we will continue this conversation with the rant that I wanted to have today. But, I find it really annoying that certain genres of “influencers”; let’s say a fashion influencer, for example, gets no push back on showing millions of outfits and people just want to buy it, buy it, buy it. And then someone else, heaven forbid, shows recipes, recipes, recipes, and then a product that’s used in recipes, and then get pooped on about it. You know? It’s like, check yourselves. Everyone just simmer down! Let someone live their life, to your point. Like, you got how many free things did you get from this person? You’re not paying for it, someone else is. Let them, and be glad and like the post because then you can still do your stuff for free. You know what I mean? That’s where I get annoyed. That’s the toll, and you didn’t have to pay it.

Cassy Joy: Yes. You know what this is making me think, Diane; is, don’t think of it as that person is sponsoring the Instagram or the content creator. You can think of it as, they’re sponsoring you. They’re sponsoring your access. And maybe if we reframe who are the sponsoring. They’re sponsoring your ability; like you’ve said several times, but they’re sponsoring your ability to consume that content. So maybe when we understand that that’s how this is working, people will be able to tap into that grace.

Diane Sanfilippo: Right. Because the alternative is paid membership sites only.

Cassy Joy: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: And that goes back to the network television versus cable model that I talk about all the time. If you want your network television, even though these days, can we all just like teleport ourselves back 20 years to when you could like put your rabbit ears on a TV and watch it and you didn’t have to also pay the cable company. And I actually don’t know how that works now. Can you have a television set, aside from Netflix and Hulu and all these web things. Like, could you put some rabbit ears on that and get television reception? I don’t know.

Cassy Joy: I think you can.

Diane Sanfilippo: But just imagine for a second that you could. And watch your Price is Right. Because I use to watch that all the time. And your Jeopardy.

Cassy Joy: Family Feud. That’s what I watched.

Diane Sanfilippo: Your Soaps. And your Family Feud and your soap operas. Like, all your channel 2, 4, 5, 7, whatever. 9, 11; all those network channels with essentially like free television. There are commercials in there. And it is what it is. But when you want to pay for content, then you won’t get commercials. So y’all want it for free; nothing is free. Period. End of story. {laughs} Anyway.

3. Tip of The Week: [1:03:55]

Cassy Joy: Tip of The Week! In this segment, we give you one tip that you can take action on this week to move your business or life forward.

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok, I’m going to give a two-sided tip. The first side is, as a person, not as a content creator, just be generous on the socials. When people post sponsored content, just give it a double tap. Just like it. Be really generous. Because when that’s your post, you’re going to hope people like it because that brand that paid for it is hoping that people like it. So just be really generous. It’s free. T-tap. T-tap. {laughs}

Ok. That’s the one side. The other side is; if you are a content creator, if you’ve wanted to be, etc. I would write down 3 to 5 things that you know about your audience that you want to keep in mind to consider when and if this idea of sponsored content comes up. And, I might even write down 3 to 5 brands that you would love to work with at some point in time, and just kind of keep them on your radar of, maybe one day you reach out with something that you would offer them. And maybe we’ll talk about this on another episode. Like, what to offer, how much to charge. That sounds like a good topic, right? But that’s what I would do. Because a lot of a lot of what we’re talking about today comes back to knowing your audience really well. And I mean that also comes back to being self-aware as a person but also as a creator and a business owner. I think it’s really important have that self-awareness. But it’s also the awareness of, like, who is in your audience? How do you take care of them? How do you best serve them? And support the business that you’re running at the same time.

That’s it for Driven this week. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe in Apple podcast, on Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @TheDrivenPodcast. Cassy is @CassyJoyGarcia as well as @FedandFit and I am @DianeSanfilippo as well as @BalancedBites.

Tune in next week for another brand new episode. Maybe I’ll keep ranting about influencers.

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