Episode #26: Listener Q&A

DRIVEN: A podcast for modern entrepreneurs. Listener Q&A

In today’s episode, we’re wrapping up our personality tests mini-series with answers to your questions! We’ll finish the show off with a weekly actionable tip.


Cassy Joy: Getting the best work out of your team is not a manipulation, it’s good leadership to put them in the right environment within their;

Diane Sanfilippo: Yes.

Cassy Joy: Where which they will thrive. Right? That’s not being manipulative. That’s called being a good leader. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Here, here.

Cassy Joy: And as a boss; it’s really, I mean, a goal of mine with Fed and Fit is to continue to grow this company and build dream jobs for people.

Welcome to Driven; a show about business, life, and wellness from two confident, curious women who are pulling back the curtain on what it’s like being an entrepreneur. Each week, join hosts Diane Sanfilippo and Cassy Joy Garcia talk about being your best, showing up for your dreams, and kicking self-doubt to the curb.

Diane is a business whisperer, best-selling author, and plant-hobbyist based in San Francisco. Cassy Joy is the founder of www.FedandFit.com, best-selling author, and casserole enthusiast. She calls San Antonio, Texas, home.

Diane Sanfilippo: In today’s episode, we’re wrapping up our personality test miniseries, with answers to your questions. We’ll finish the show off with a weekly actionable tip.

Topics:

  1. What’s on my plate [1:17]
  2. Listener Questions: Hiring based on personality tests [15:33]
  3. Personality tests for better communication [24:29]
  4. Testing for coaching and clients [27:30]
  5. Getting coworkers to buy in [34:25]
  6. Weaponizing the test results [44:56]
  7. Using tests as a good leader [47:39]
  8. Tip of The Week: Freedom Compass [59:20]

1.  What’s on my plate [1:17]

Cassy Joy: What’s on My Plate. In this segment, we talk about what’s happening in our businesses, and in our lives for the week. Hi Diane! Oh hi!

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh hi!

Cassy Joy: How’s your day going? What are you doing? What’s new? What’s shaking?

Diane Sanfilippo: What has everybody been up to?

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: We definitely used to quote a lot of mean girls on the Balanced Bites podcast. My day is going well. I’m back in the gym with just mostly unweighted activity. For those of you; for the last handful of episodes, my L5 disc has had some issues. Which, raise your hand if anyone else has had these issues.

But it’s so stressful. But I did get a 20-pound barbell. Which is not; that’s not an actual barbell.

Cassy Joy: That’s where I started.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} One of those ones that’s in the rack of all the different pre-weighted barbells. You know, the ones with the things already on it. Anyway. And I did some sit-down box squats, just to see how my body would handle having a little bit of weight on it. And by the end of what I was trying with the 30-pound it was not amazing. But it was fine to do some unweighted lower body exercises.

Cassy Joy: Nice.

Diane Sanfilippo: So, anyway. That’s what’s up with the B-O-D. {laughs}

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t say that. So this week, I’m really excited. This episode is originally going to air on February 10th. So we will be actually in the second week of a new menu for Balanced Bites. Which, for those of you who don’t know, I have a frozen meal business. You can order anywhere in the United States, and we deliver to you within like 2 to 3 days. Our shipments are always on Tuesday, so just kind of check out the website and how it works before you order a delivery that won’t be there when you will.

But I want to just; I don’t know. Talk a little bit more about that at some point. I’ve gotten into the process. But rolling out new meals is such a labor of love. Because it’s not just; let’s pick the 10 new meals we’re going to launch. It’s; ok, here are the recipes. What does the kitchen think? Can this be executed properly? Then we get them back, and it’s iterating a few times. And it is really challenging to take something that I know how it would taste when I make it at home in a four-serving batch and see how that pans out across 100 servings or 125 or however many the kitchen is going to make in a batch, or at once. And then obviously multiplying that out.

It’s really interesting. Obviously, the process is a little bit different, even though it is still cooked by real people with just fresh food the same way it is at home. So that process is just very; it’s arduous, I should say. But it’s very exciting when it finally does come to life and we have this chicken butternut squash enchilada bake that I’m so excited about. Because we have a cashew cheese sauce; it’s not dairy. And I’m just really pumped about the cashew cheese sauce situation. So just throwing that in there.

But we have a menu of 10 new meals. And I’m just pumped to see how people respond to that. So when this airs, it will be the second week, but it has not actually released yet as of the time of recording. So I’m just kind of on pins and needles. And we can’t tell people ahead of time when it’s releasing, which is not comfortable for me. I love to talk about; oh, this is coming next week. We can’t talk about it, because we can’t throw off each weeks’ orders and create a situation where people are then waiting to order. And sometimes I don’t know exactly when it will all come together. But it is an interesting thing. So basically when it launches it will just be that Sunday; hey, new menu. And everyone will be surprised and excited.

And we have some new add-ons for our boxes, which is also an interesting approach to the business. I want to make sure that people have options and some fun. Oh, let me add this. And there’s some variety happening, as well as complimentary items that people can eat with their dishes. So we have Pete’s Paleo bacon, I’ve loved Pete’s Paleo bacon for a long time, so we have that as something people can add on.

And, Siete tortillas. Which, that’s super exciting to me, because we always want them in our house. And I love the idea of people being able to get them with a box of meals. Especially because we have a handful of Mexican flavor inspired meals that people can eat the tortillas with.

We have such a beautiful, unique situation shipping frozen food that we can actually ship that type of thing in these boxes. Whereas, along with spices, I can’t ship those fresh, cold, frozen items. But because we do ship frozen, we can put that stuff in there. So that’s really fun.

And then I’ll just very quickly mention the NTA conference. If anyone is a nutritional therapy consultant or practitioner, I will be at the NTA conference this year. I believe I’m speaking on Friday, so just keep your eyes open for that. It’s at the end of February. So, I think it’s literally the very last days of the month.

And we are still hiring. We’re hiring a customer service assistant for Balanced Bites. And we’re also hiring a video editor. So if you’re looking for a job in either of those roles, head to DianeSanfilippo.com/jobs. And watch out for typos and spelling errors on your applications {laughs} because attention to detail matters. And I hate to be that person, but it’s kind of an instant disqualifier that you had the time to look at this and did not catch the spelling errors. I’m making a cringey face.

Although I kind of would appreciate if someone sent something with a spelling error and then followed up with; oh my goodness, I’m seeing it!

Cassy Joy: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Like, you catch it. Don’t just let me catch it. So, anyhoo. What’s going on in the great state of Texas, Cassy?

Cassy Joy: I’m just laughing to myself; because double check your work is something that my mom has drilled into me. And has become something that I’m semi-obsessed with. Is reread, triple read your work. But, her especially. She and my dad run this company; 150 to 200 people. And if an email goes out to a group; she’s an Enneagram 8. And if an email goes out to a group of people, especially if something is client facing that has some sort of a lazy typo, as she calls it. Like, you wrote it and you didn’t read it. It really gets her worked up.

Hoo, it’s good.

Diane Sanfilippo: I need to know what she does.

Cassy Joy: What does she do? She will; let’s see. I’ve seen her a do a number of things over the years. She adjusts her strategy on the fly. I’ve seen her reply to all. I’ve seen her send out a company-wide memo; “Double check your emails. This is a do not pass go kind of objective of your day.” Right? Reread your emails and double check for typos.

I’ve seen her do individual coaching sessions. But she’s no fuss. I mean, there’s no wiggle room around this. She’s like; yeah. You’re busy. We’re all busy. Double check your work! {laughs} Yeah. Anyways. It’s great.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love it.

Cassy Joy: Ok, so new. I am; I actually just connected with Jessica Honaker. She’s the founder of the Noonday Collection. And I have been; if you’re familiar. Are you familiar with Noonday, Diane?

Diane Sanfilippo: Barely.

Cassy Joy: It is this really neat company. It’s actually a network marketing company. But they source jewelry and other textiles, bags, scarves, things like that. And they provide jobs to women across the world. Really meaningful, dignified jobs to women to create these incredible crafts for these collections. They pay them very fair wages. And they make these really beautiful, incredible pieces. And there’s a story behind everyone. You know who made it, and where it the world they are and what a difference this company has made in those communities.

I’m just a big fan. I’m sitting in my closet again, next to my dresser. Which the top of it; I should probably post a picture of it in Instagram. It is a hot mess. There’s zero organization, because it’s just a bunch of my Noonday earrings and Noonday bracelets. {laughs}

So anyways, I’ve been a consumer for years. But this company was founded by Jessica. And lo and behold, she’s actually from San Antonio. But we connected because folks; Cook Once, Eat All Week is bringing me all kinds of friends, Diane. And it’s so fun. Jessica wrote a book called Imperfect Courage, and she has a podcast called the Going Scared podcast, which is all about just really just going for it, even if you’re scared, jumping in with both feet. It’s just neat, and I was really grateful to connect with her.

She invited me to be on her podcast, and we did an Instagram live this morning on her page. And just chatted about; I think just how to have grace in this wellness space. Especially if you have a history of disordered eating, which I think is a really commonality that weaves a lot of us health coach folks together. At least in my experience, people who have this background. And how to just move forward with grace and acknowledge that that’s a piece of us, but it doesn’t necessarily have to dictate our lives.

So we had a really great conversation. I just really respect her as a businesswoman, and I had a lot of fun connected. It was kind of a really fun, stars aligning moment. Because I’ve really respected that business for a long time.

I also, turning in my first chapter. It sounds weird to say this, but I’m turning it into my photographer today. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Wohoo!

Cassy Joy: Really; this book three piece has been really nice. Because I’ve invited so many bright minds to the table to help. We have a photographer that’s going to actually; is doing the lifestyle and the food photography that I’ve vetted, and went through all these options, and had my dream photographer and it turns out she wanted the project. So I’m sending her the chapters ahead of time so she can wrap her mind around how to organize these shoots.

So it’s just so nice, because by the time this book actually goes to my publisher, it will have not only been through all the photos but also through; I’m hiring an additional editor on my team to polish. So we can internally really just refine and polish this stone without it being this; you’re in the throes of a deadline, we have to get this thing submitted kind of pressure. We really get to mull over the concept and the idea and polish it internally, and then send it off. And then I get to go through that really strenuous process with the publisher. But by then, it’s just going to be; I hope I’m able to turn in a really polished product.

So I’m just really looking forward to that being the experience in this book. Because that has not been necessarily my process in the past. It will be nice to have these chapters off, because I was telling someone the other day. I was like; I need to get this monkey off my back. But I actually said, I need to get this elephant off my back. Because it is. And that’s what it feels like. It’s this huge weight, and I’m ready to be done with it.

You know when you’re the bottleneck on a big project? I know we’ve talked about this before, but with this book, I am the bottleneck. I’m writing this whole thing, conceptualizing the whole thing. And yes, my team is here to help, and refine, and brainstorm. But this is my work, my product. And then there’s also this ticking clock of a baby coming, right? In a few short months. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: Minor detail.

Diane Sanfilippo: Minor detail.

Cassy Joy: So it’s just this; it’s a very weird state. I think I’m going to be a little bit living on edge for the next 8 weeks until this thing is done. And then speaking of baby; this is my last more personal update. But Diane; I’ve come out with it. I came out with it on Instagram today, the day that we’re recording. So I have varicose veins with this pregnancy that I did not have with the first one. And let’s see; how old am I? I think I’m 33 years old. I’ll be 34 in March. And it just, like; I had no idea. I had no idea that this was a thing that could happen with babies. Maybe they’ll go away. Maybe they won’t. Some of them are very painful. But they’re not cute, right? And it’s like what I thought my legs; it sounds so vain and silly. But what I thought my legs looked like got flipped on it’s head. Literally overnight. They popped up overnight.

And I’ve just decided I’m tired of hiding them. I’ve hidden them for almost 3 months now. And we’re just going to roll with it. So I’m wearing a shorter skirt today with tennis shoes, and I have all my support stuff on. This is not a cry for help or advice. I’m well researched. But I just; I’m tired. I’m just going to show them off. And if people have questions about the weird veins on my right leg only, then, you know. They can just deal with that. So that’s where I’m at.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love it. I feel like pregnancy might be this whole other warp-speed to what I only could get through of another decade of living of like; listen, I’m going to care less about what you think because I just can’t control all of these things that are happening with my body.

Cassy Joy: Totally.

Diane Sanfilippo: And because I don’t have kids and I didn’t have the experience of all the wildly unpredictably bodily things happening.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s just; it all just has started falling apart in my 40s. So.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, that is it. It’s like an incubator on time. My mom, super helpful. Right? My mother goes; I don’t think I’ve ever seen veins like that on anybody your age, much less; not just barely double your age maybe! {laughing} I’m like, thanks.

Diane Sanfilippo: Gee thanks, mom.

Cassy Joy: Really comforting. {laughing}

2.  Listener Questions: Hiring based on personality tests [15:33]

Cassy Joy: Today, we’re answering your questions about personality tests for entrepreneurs. And, for those in the workplace. We have several questions around hiring and personality tests. The first one that came through is from Recipe and Ramblings. They ask, “Favorite personality test to ask teams to take? How to keep in mind and use your teams varying personalities to support and lead them? I’ve worked in an office where potential employees are asked to take a personality questionnaire to determine if they’ll be a good fit for the team. People have not been hired over it; which I understand, but I’m also curious if I’m wrong to think that a good leader might actually be open to expanding their team and working with different personalities. I totally get that some personalities aren’t necessarily right for certain jobs or position. Or might work better in different areas. But it has always seemed a little personality discrimination to me. I would love to know your thoughts on this.”

Ooh, I’ve got some thoughts. It’s a good question. What do you think, Diane?

Diane Sanfilippo: Well, I think a couple of things. I actually think that that information; I don’t know that we put that on our recent job descriptions, because these two positions might have a little less co-dependency in working than some of the other positions that we hire for. But I think it’s important information for a leader who is going to be working directly with those people. But a good leader should really understand that this is to get to know the person better, more so than to rule them out.

Cassy Joy: Amen.

Diane Sanfilippo: And to come into the meeting or the interview with a different set of eyes on where that person is coming from. So here’s a great example, and I’ve talked about Enneagram 9s a lot before. And I like the Enneagram test for this reason. Although it does seem, in some larger corporate settings, Enneagram might be a strange one to ask for because it does have such personal elements to it, versus something like Myers Briggs. Which I don’t even find that enlightening, as we talked about last week.

But I do think, if you are a well versed leader and the person in the position of hiring, this information can help you in the case of, for example, an Enneagram 9. If you’ve got questions for them, knowing that they want a moment to pause and think and not expecting that they’re just going to quickly fire back a response the way maybe an Enneagram 8 would, or a 3 would. Somebody who just tends to live more on the edge. Your 1s and your 4s and your 9s; your 6s; a lot of people are just going to need that beat to think and process and then deliver a response.

It also might be interesting. And this is; I mean, maybe it’s an unfair way to approach things, but I don’t know. If you’re getting that information on an application, it might be a good way to figure out or how to proceed with an interview. Maybe you send someone the questions ahead of time. To me, this is the difference between test takers and somebody who might be great studying, memorizing, and then taking the test versus an open book test. And I just don’t think that the workplace or an interview process should be for testing someone. It’s not about that.

Most of the time, getting your job done isn’t something that only happens within 30 or 60 seconds. Most of the time, there’s a question, and somebody gets to process and respond and solve the problem in their own way. So I think if we give the grace around understanding that all different types of people can get different types of jobs done, but paying the respect to the fact that they’re just going to do it differently; I think that can be a great way to use these tests.

Now, my favorite personality test to ask the team to take; I mean, I like all of them. I do think that initially the Four Tendencies is a very easy one to just lean into. And I think that that’s one; again, you don’t not hire someone for a certain reason. But here I am with at least one Rebel on my team, if not another besides myself. Or it could be a woman who is an Obliger in Obliger rebellion. If you don’t know what we’re talking about, go back to the episode where we talk about the Four Tendencies.

But it is really challenging to know how to work with different people. And I think that it’s almost like; I don’t know. Forgive this analogy, but it’s almost like a loaded gun in the hand of somebody who doesn’t really know how to use it is not the best situation. Right? If you’re not well versed on how to use these tests, then don’t try to use them in that setting. If you do feel really comfortable in how to use them appropriately, and not use them against people, then I think it’s super enlightening, and it helps you to become more generous and open minded in your expectations and how to deal with people.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, I’m with you. I think that the Enneagram especially, but looking at all of these personality tests. My two favorites, to your point underscoring, are Enneagram and the Four Tendencies. Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies. But I think that they can be, on a knife’s edge, weaponized if in the wrong hands. And to your point, I do think that it is a sign of either immature or not well educated or well formed thoughts of the leader to decide hiring and next steps based on these personality test results. Because, I mean, people will just blow your socks off.

And to Diane’s point; I like to use. I do ask; I think for the last two positions that we’ve filled I’ve asked for both the Enneagram and the Four Tendencies; and to Diane’s point, I did that to help inform the interview process. And to really help me get a better understanding of who potentially is showing up. And it also helped us formulate our questions so that we could really cater that whole experience of really getting to know this person in the best possible light. And also ask some pointed questions that could be potential weak spots based on maybe just the pairing of your two personalities. Not to say it’s their weakness, but it could be a pain point between the two of you; your types of personalities.

So I think with that; but in order to get there it requires a lot of wisdom. A lot of familiarity with these concepts. And I think we need to stay hypervigilant to not weaponize these formats against folks. I feel really strongly about that.

And it’s interesting because, for the example, the Enneagram in particular. It’s actually one of these things; it’s a little bit of a burr in my saddle. I’m really excited that it’s so conversational right now, and it’s out there so much. But so many of the more click-baity memes that are living, let’s say, on Instagram for example. They’re kind of, in a way, they’re weaponizing this concept. Or these personality test results. By really showing the worst sides of all of these numbers. And it just kind of rubs me the wrong way. I really prefer more grace based. Here’s the potential of these numbers, especially in the work environment.

Diane Sanfilippo: Here, here. I will tack onto that that; if there is a tendency for folks to say; I prefer to hire this type of person versus this type of person. So for me, all things being equal. Say I had two candidates who really both seemed totally equal. And presuming they test appropriately, because I have had people take these tests. I have someone on my team who tested as an Obliger, and for years we could not figure out why she would not maintain the deadlines that I created for her. And lo and behold, she’s a Rebel.

All things being equal, I personally, as a Rebel, would rather not hire another Rebel to work with me. And this isn’t about weaponizing against that person; it’s knowing myself and knowing that I work best in an environment where I can talk to people and make demands of them when they respond a certain way because of who I am.

So I think it does go both ways. And sometimes it’s our own limitations in the moment of; you know what? I am not best equipped in this moment to work with other Rebels. Maybe one day I’ll be better. So, for now, I have to make that decision. I just think that it is so valuable to know that.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

3. Personality tests for better communication [24:29]

Diane Sanfilippo: So there was a follow up question here from Kim Burty, where she said; she was curious about that too. She would hate to think she’s not considered for a position based on a certain type. “While in my past experience, drive to learn, overall work ethic, etc., can be overlooked. I think in general, I’ve benefited more from personality tests for interpersonal relationships in the workplace, for example. I love knowing my coworker is this type, so I know how to better communicate.”

Totally. Here, here. And I do think there is so much value to doing this after you’re in the organization and doing, you know, maybe small team conversations around it. Knowing how to work with each other better. But as someone who hires fairly regularly, almost every year. There is some position that I need to hire for. I have found it to be really helpful for me. Again, it’s not that I’m not going to hire someone based on a type. It’s knowing a little more about what to expect without going too far into assumptions. I really don’t drive too far into those assumptions. I just say; ok. I have a feel for the way this person might interact. And that just helps me know them a little bit better.

Cassy Joy: I think that’s fair. And keep in mind; Diane and I are running, relatively speaking, right? In the world of business; very small organization. I mean, there are four people on my team, myself included. And so when there is a potential mismatch, or somebody who is; man, how do I put it? Everyone is considered for a position. I guess let me start there, regardless of personality test results when they come in. Every single person is considered.

And I actually get really excited; the maximizer in me, gets very excited when someone submits; let’s say they are a type 4 Questioner. I don’t have either of those on my team. Right? And a part of me gets really excited, to some of these women’s point, because it would offer out a way to balance out. Maybe bring light to a blind spot in my team and in my organization that I don’t currently have.

But also you have to trust the leadership and the owners of the business that they know, probably; they have a pretty good idea of the kind of self sufficiency or intrinsic motivation or inclination to be; let’s say, motivated by goals and ladders or come up with ideas or dive in deep into the weeds, depending on where you might fall in any of these spectrums. Or connect with customer service. There’s going to be inclinations that will do well in certain job types. And it just might; there’s a good chance that if you were chosen for a position blindly, and you found out…

Man I don’t know if I’m making any sense.

Diane Sanfilippo: You are. And actually, I’m going to dive into this next question, because it’s along the same lines.

Cassy Joy: Ok.

4. Testing for coaching and clients [27:30]

Diane Sanfilippo: Shelly Verducci, if that’s how we say her name, is asking, “Do you think personality tests are useful in regard to attracting the ideal client, say for health coaching?”

I actually, when I initially read this. I’m going to answer this in two ways because this is actually what I’m going to be talking about at the NTA conference. So first and foremost, I’m kind of reading, “Do you think personality tests are useful in regard to helping you decide a career path?” So first and foremost, that’s one thing I want to address. I do really think they can be. It does not mean that different types of people can’t do different jobs. But there’s a reason why they say type 3s tend to be entrepreneurs. Type 8s tend to be attorneys or lawyers. There are certain personality characteristics that lend themselves to standing out in different types of career paths.

It probably is not going to be a type 9s first choice to be a salesperson. It’s just not in the cards that that’s their natural first raise my hand, I want to get out there and get in front of people, on a stage, and selling. Does that mean there aren’t type 9s who are amazing salespeople? No, of course not. But I just think it would be silly to say that there are not some natural inclinations within those types. Because they’re obviously characteristics that lend themselves to being good at different jobs.

Cassy Joy: Right. Like a data processor; someone who just jumps into the data and really gets granular with all kinds of information. I’m generalizing here, you could almost argue if I’m going to play devil’s advocate on myself. You could almost argue I’m weaponizing it a teeny bit. But you could say a data processor and an analyzer is so well suited for somebody who might be a type 5 on the Enneagram. And let’s say if a type 7 applies for that job, are they really going to thrive and feel like; gosh darn it. Yes, I struck gold. This is my dream job. You know?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. You’ve got to find that marriage of; is this person so pumped about this in a way that matches their personality type to this job? And they very well may be. I know type 7s, for example, who are entrepreneurs with their hands in a whole bunch of pots at once, and then I know a type 7 who; at least I’m pretty sure he’s a type 7, who was in the military. And did have a side hustle, but at the same time was hyper focused while there. That was the job. So it doesn’t mean that different types can’t be involved in different types of careers.

And I’m going to be talking about that at the NTA conference. Because I’ve divided three different groupings of Enneagram types into what I would consider a natural path forward for folks who go through a health coaching program. Whether they’re going to be the head and the face of a brand. Whether they’re going to be support staff to someone like that. Or whether they’re going to work more collaboratively in an office; something along those lines. Or have their own practice. But not have it be this big; I’m a personal brand type of thing.

There are just different ways to approach any field of work with regards to your personality type. It doesn’t mean you can’t go into the medical field if you’re a creative artistic person and you’re an Enneagram 4. It just means; what are the options that feel the best for you? I think that’s a matter of that self awareness and matching up.

So the question here, do you think they’re attractive regarding ideal clients. For health coaching? I don’t know about attracting. I think working with, yes. I think if you’re going to use one that’s a free test and probably the best to use for a health coach, it would be the Four Tendencies. Because you need to know; how does that person respond to expectations.

So if you’re a health coach, and you have people take the Four Tendencies test. Gretchen Rubin’s website, and you find out they’re a Rebel, that’s so helpful to know that a Rebel needs to decide for themselves that this is what they want to do. If that’s what they’ve decided, then they are committed. There is nothing you can say or do to make it happen, aside from knowing that this is their choice, and they have to be identifying with, who is the person that I’m becoming by making this choice. That’s the way a Rebel will respond.

If you find out that they’re an Upholder; sweet. An Upholder is probably going to do what you say. If they’re a Questioner; we’ve all had them. They’ve got a million questions and you’re dealing with; this is the person with the most objections. They seem the least trusting at first. But it’s really about just getting their questions answered. So those are important things to know.

So I don’t know about attracting; I think it’s more about, how do you successfully have that relationship so that you continue to have successful clients. And again, to Cassy’s point about not weaponizing the types or the tendencies; you don’t want to say to a Rebel; no, I won’t coach you. Because I’m a really great client. I’ve got someone who is working with me right now for coaching, because I have decided that is what I want. When I work with a personal trainer, I am not late. I’m there. I show up. Or if I have to cancel, no problem. I’ll pay. If I had to cancel last minute because I was sick; whatever it is. So judging how people will be as clients based on that is, I think, unfair. But you can definitely figure out how to work with them better based on that information.

Cassy Joy: Yes. Amen. I also, to underscore that, I’m a Rebel and always won most coachable {laughs} in all of my middle school and high school sports. Because I wanted it. I wanted to be better.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s adorable.

Cassy Joy: It was not MVP, but I did get most coachable. {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: I love it. I would vote you as most coachable.

Cassy Joy: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: For sure.

Cassy Joy: I really like, when I choose the coach. You know.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is how we first became friends. Which is so such a type 8 thing. Well, hopefully it’s a healthy type 8 thing. We so want to help people. I’m like; help me help you. Let me help you. I’m sitting here with skills that you could use, and I’m just untapped. Let me help you. It was like; one phone call we had, and then Cassy is like; she already was building her empire and continues to build it. But we weren’t even friends yet. So wild. But that’s what I love. I love doing that.

5. Getting coworkers to buy in [34:25]

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok, we have another question. Art of Barbell.

Cassy Joy: Cool name.

Diane Sanfilippo: Underscore L asks, “Our issue is getting buy in from all of our employees to consider doing one or any of these tests, and why it’s helpful. I coach at a gym that has about 5 coaches and 2 owners, so we’re fairly small. And our previous gym owner wanted us to try the Myers Brigg type indicator test and report on our results. But a few people feel it would not be the best use of our time compared to many other important things needed to be done. Most of our bi-monthly coach meetings take a couple of hours already. We’re all paid hourly per class and per meeting, so perhaps there isn’t incentive to participate or enough buy in to see how this is helpful, since they’d need to take the quizzes, etc., on their own time. I use Gretchen Rubin’s Four Tendencies all the time to assess our gym members to know who is an Obliger, Questioner, etc. And can ever assess tendencies in my colleagues; and of course, it’s the Questioners who are the ones that think it’s not worth their time. What are your thoughts on how to work with colleagues who don’t seem to have the buy in with personality tests yet?”

Cassy Joy: Ooh, that’s a good question. You know; I would say. Ooh, man. I would {laughs}.

Diane Sanfilippo: Do you want me to jump in?

Cassy Joy: Yeah, I’m trying to formulate my thoughts around; how would I talk to a Questioner who is resistant to taking a personality test. And if I think about my dad, for example, who is a Questioner who is very resistant to taking one or doing something like this for his company. I had to paint a picture for him. And that sounds manipulative, and it wasn’t. I was really trying to help describe the benefit to his team, and demystifying some of the ways that everybody is motivated, and whatever their basic fears and basic motivators are and how they could find more; I’m about to make up a word. {laughing} What do you call it when you’re synchronized? Synchronicity.

Diane Sanfilippo: Synchronicity? Synchronicity is a word.

Cassy Joy: That’s the one I wanted. I wasn’t going to say that word, but that’s what I wanted to say.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s real.

Cassy Joy: He wouldn’t be able to find some synchronicity with his team, and therefore make his team more efficient if everybody knows how everybody works and receives information more easily. And if it’s just more out in the open and understood. And for him, it was a way to help reduce friction on his team; especially his leadership team. Which would therefore, if it reduces your friction, it would reduce side conversations, which could eventually fester into actual drama. Which distracts people from their actual work.

So once I really walked him through that entire concept, and I explained a little bit. When I said; what questions do you have, let’s say, about the Enneagram. What questions do you have about the Enneagram? And I just let him pepper me with all the questions. And I had to work really hard. I don’t know, Art of Barbell, what your Enneagram is or your Four Tendencies, but I’m an Enneagram 3 and I’m a very sensitive one. And I had to put on my; I need to desensitize myself real quick hat. Because the questions he’s going to ask me, it’s not meant to insult me or my proposal that this would be a really powerful tool. He’s trying to really understand before he’s ready to press go.

And so, I would paint the picture. I would describe your vision for how these tests and how these frameworks might really benefit the team. And then say; Ok. Hit me. What are your questions about these tests? And let them exhaust all the things they have in their tank. At the end of it, you’re going to have somebody who is in, or very clearly out. But it will eliminate some of this confusion.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love that. I think, it’s almost like this prosecutor building a case. And if you’re dealing with Questioners, you have to do that. You have to be ready to answer all the questions. So if you’re not feeling well versed enough on the Four Tendencies; I would lead with the Four Tendencies. Because it’s the easiest, because it’s free.

First of all, you need the owner’s buy in most likely. Because if they’re the bosses, then what they say is going to go. Right? I mean, at least in our world, we pay the checks, we say what happens. So worry about getting that buy in initially. And then if you know it’s the Questioners who are mostly the sticking points. And this is true, as well, when we talk about people who want to share how they want to eat or their nutrition choices or any of that. People can’t question or object to the success that you’ve had. They can’t say that’s not real or not true, right? So if it’s just; here’s what this test says, that’s one thing. But if you present information of; you know what. I was working with these two clients for X amount of time. It was tough to figure out how to get them to do XYZ. But then here’s what I learned, so here’s what I tried, and now here’s the new outcome that I’m getting. And someone can’t argue with those results. So you might want to lean on some people in the gym who they know were not understanding how to do a hang clean for 6 weeks. And then one day, you figured out how to do that.

So use some real life examples. Help them to see it. Don’t try to convince. But be there to answer questions, make sure that somebody knows that you’re happy to answer questions. Don’t take the questions personally, which is what Cassy was saying. Just understand that they need to get their questions answered about why and how exactly this will be useful to them. Because once you get their buy in, then that will change everything.

Especially with a team of about 7 people. I think this is wildly helpful. And I do think that you can pin it as; this is something that, if we know about this and get to know it a little, we can use it with our clients. And that’s a good; I don’t know. Just a good way to kind of wiggle into it without it being super personal.

Cassy Joy: I like that. It’s a way to level up our customer service of our clients. As a way to differentiate, and the marketplace. I think that’s really wise. And something else to consider, because you touched on. We don’t really have time as a coaching group and we’re paid hourly; I want to just shed light on something maybe you’re not seeing. Because let’s say all 7 folks take, let’s just say the Four Tendencies. You have them take the test; I think it takes, I’m not joking, 5 minutes. And it’s free on Gretchen Rubin’s website. So that’s really not going to take a whole lot of time.

And maybe at a meeting you do a really brief introduction. Let’s go around the room and just say what our Four Tendencies are. And what is an observation for how you feel this informs how you show up here, and how you coach your clients. And let them come with an observation. Lickety split; go around the room. Don’t let it ramble on. And then just let the conversations happen. Because as folks are in the gym, they’re going to be chit chatting with each other. And they’re going to keep teasing this out.

Let’s say you graduate and you do the Enneagram with this. Your team is not going to be able to help themselves. They’re going to be talking about the Enneagram. Because they have this new tool in their tool kit. And you don’t have to necessarily consider that billable time, because they’re talking about the Enneagram and how maybe they best relate to one another within that framework. So don’t think you’re going to have to carve out or pay hours more to folks to give them time to discuss these personality tests. That’s going to happen on their own time, just naturally. By the nature of these things.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. That’s a really good point. I think one other thing that comes up, in general, when there are objections to this type of conversation is; sometimes we’re just in a group of folks where personal growth is not on top of everyone’s mind, as it is for some. I would argue that when you’re in a gym, it should be. Right? Growth and development and getting better at life is one of the whole points of being in a gym. Did she say she was in a CrossFit gym? I don’t know, but she’s working with barbells, so maybe.

But I think if it’s not, and you’re dealing with just really defensive folks. There’s a huge amount of emotional intelligent that comes, or is required, of someone who is going to ask a group of people who are naturally opposing to this idea, to buy in. So you kind of have to meter and measure how you’re bringing it up. And ok, that feels a little manipulative, maybe. But it’s not. It’s just being emotionally intelligent and saying; look, if I just lay this on everyone that we should all take the enneagram test, and not come in with all the ways that I think it’s helpful or what it’s doing in my life or whatever, then nobody cares and they just feel like it’s a burden. But how do you release that burden and make it seem like; wow, this is so helpful and so easy and it’s basically a free way for us to get better at what we’re doing. And we’re not going to put anyone on blast or attack them for whatever their type is.

And I think; this could also be a side note for personal relationships. If you’re in a personal relationship with your spouse, or a good friend who is just closed off to just taking this type of test. I mean, unfortunately, you might hit a point where you’re like; actually, this group of coaches is not who I want to coach with. You might get to a point where you discover; this is not a healthy environment where people are interested in growth. You might hit that point. So it is something else to consider.

I personally would not be able to slam my head against the wall, if I were working in an environment where people were just consistently closed off to bettering themselves. But I have a hunch that coaches are not that way. I think it’s just a matter of making sure that they don’t feel like you’re undermining or questioning their authority or ability as a coach by saying; this is maybe something that we should do together and figure this out. It is less about assessing each other; it’s more about, how do we work with our clients.

6. Weaponizing the test results [44:56]

Cassy Joy: I think that’s such a great point. Dogs and Dishes asked as a follow up here, with a slight subtle twist to the answer I have for you. “How to get buy in from team members who think it’s ‘pinning them into a category’? How to implement the findings into actionable strategies in the workplace and how to avoid categorizing somebody.” Her job, they used a test called the True Colors, which we’ve done together at Beautycounter. You have four colors. What is it; red, yellow, blue, and white? And it turned into people saying, “Oh, she’s so blue.” Which blue is associated with emotional decision making. It was meant to be an insult; like, oh that person made a decision with emotions versus facts and data.

And this goes back to, I think, what Diane and I have talked about already. There is definitely a place to weaponize personality tests, and it sounds like what you described is that personality. Because these tests fell into the hands of somebody who maybe didn’t have a very high EQ, like Diane just said. Or didn’t take a lot of care while introducing this concept. These are very, very powerful tools. And when you ask somebody to essentially expose of themselves their internal workings and how they make decisions and how they show up, I think that it’s important as leaders that we really honor and respect that person and just really do our best to help, I guess, really try to keep our finger on the pulse of the tendency of the organization to potentially use these test results against folks.

And if you see it, then call it out. Do an all hands meeting. Talk about the nature of these tests. Talk about the benefits of all of these types. And bring that back to top of mind. Though it might be more salacious to talk about, and a little bit more tempting, you know, water cooler chat to talk about the downsides of these personality or these framework tendencies and these types. Although that’s more salacious and more tempting, I challenge you to rise above. And if you are not the boss, and you’re seeing this happening in your organization, I empower you to walk into the boss’s office and say; hey, I see this going on. This is an incredible framework, and it could really be helpful, but people are using it against folks. And I just think that we really need a quick redirection to make sure folks know this is unacceptable and inappropriate in the work environment.

I think that it has to come top down. You need to really control the conversation around these things. Because it could be a runaway train, in a very large organization, when folks can hide by the watercooler and weaponize it. But if you’re witnessing it, then you are also now responsible to do something about it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Here, here.

Cassy Joy: Ok. You good with that boo, boo? {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Yea girl.

7. Using tests as a good leader [47:39]

Cassy Joy: Ok. Next question. Jo Cooks and Lifts. “How do you use different personality tests to get the best work out of your team without feeling like you’re manipulating them or the outcome?” What do you think?

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh, so this is a good one. I feel like we’ve touched on this a little bit along the way. But if look at my team, who has apparently broken down into pretty much we’re dealing with 9s and 6s right now. {laughs} Which is so funny to me, to see how that happens. And would you guess that an 8 would be doing well with so many 9s? No, you wouldn’t, right? Because you would think; wouldn’t an 8 want a bunch of 3s on their team? Someone who is going to match their intensity. And I’m like; actually, I enjoy the grounding calming nature for the most part. Not that everyone is grounding and calming every moment. But they kind of force me to simmer down. You know?

So how do you use them to get the best out of your team without manipulating? I honestly use it as a way to view something from someone else’s point of view. So, having more empathy. This is something that over the last couple of years; I mean, it is my growth 100%, to stop expecting people to work the way I do. Stop expecting them to be driven in the same ways or by the same things that I am. Besides the part of, this is my company and so as the owner, you’re always going to have a different work ethic or view or what have you.

Aside from that, I have shifted my mindset to look at the different people on my team and think about; how do I want them to feel in their job? And I don’t want them to feel like they’re constantly failing because I can see the way that I was leading maybe 5 years ago would have led to some of that. That my expectations are always high, too high, unrealistic. And not everyone on the team is always voicing; Diane, this is unrealistic. I can’t do this. This is too much for today or this week. Knowing that some of these personality types are not going to say no that quickly. But being sensitive to that.

And again, become more empathetic to recognizing; I want the people who work with me to be happy and fulfilled and to be choosing this work at least 80% of it. We’re all going to have at least 20% of the poop work we don’t want to do. {laughs}

But that’s what I use it for. To get the best out of my team. I really like to look at; how is their role aligning with the way that they show up in the world. And how can I better present; I hate to use the word demands, but my demands. My requests of them. How can I better present my requests of them, or tasks I need them to complete, in a way that feels good for them.

Ultimately, this is a little bit of the Danielle LaPorte stuff, if you’ve ever seen her work. Where she asks the question, when somebody is using a planner or planning their life for the year. How do you want to feel? And focused and calm has been a big thing for me. And I don’t just want to feel that, I want my whole team to feel that. I want them to feel like they know what’s expected of them. That they are not constantly failing on what they’re delivering for me. That they can be successful at what they’re doing so that they build confidence. That’s how I want them to feel. So I can use these tests and their types to figure out how to approach them, knowing that some people are naturally inclined to managing projects. Some people are naturally inclined to needing a little more time and space for certain decisions. All of those things. I think just makes you a better leader so you can create a better environment for everyone that you’re working with.

Cassy Joy: Amen. You know, I have a slight new thing to introduce as an answer, to touch on what Jo Cooks and Lifts asks here. And first, a distinction. Getting the best work out of your team is not a manipulation, it’s good leadership to put them in the right environment where which they will thrive. Right? That’s not being manipulative. That’s called being a good leader. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Here, here.

Cassy Joy: And as a boss, it’s really; I mean, a goal of mine with Fed and Fit is to continue to grow this company and build dream jobs for people. And it’s not like I say; alright, I’m hiring; next job is dream job. Step right up and come snag it. It’s going to look different for every person. And building that dream job is an evolution over months and years of getting to know a person. So how do I make sure these people are aligned with what I want? Because I want folks to just; I love my job. I freaking love what I do. And I believe that that is possible for every member of my team to show up and be like; hot dang! I am so excited to go work today! Right? I’m so excited to go work on these things.

So I combined a couple of things. Number one; I just actually did this audit. Diane, I don’t know if I’ve told you. But I just audited my team on all of their tasks. I don’t know if you’ve heard of, or if you’ve ever used, Michael Hyatt’s Freedom Compass. I think he talks about it in his book, Free to Focus. I’m a big Michael Hyatt fan. And I use their planner, the Focus Planner. I think it’s fantastic. But the Freedom Compass; this is his work, but you can find it if you just Google it. You can find it online.

But it’s about taking; if you think about, there are things that you’re very good at. And there are things that you really enjoy. And on the flip side, there are things that you don’t enjoy, and things that you are not good at. So within that you come up with these four corners. And he calls it the desire zone, which are things that you’re really good at that you enjoy. Right? The drudgery zone is the opposite, it’s the things that you’re not good at that you also do not enjoy. There’s the distraction zone; stuff you’re good at that you; sorry. Stuff you really enjoy that maybe you’re not really good at. And then disinterest zone is the stuff that you’re good at but maybe you don’t enjoy it.

So accounting and numbers for example is a good example of a disinterest zone for me. I’m very detail oriented, when it comes to numbers especially, and I am very good at math. But I don’t enjoy it. So it’s in the disinterest zone for me. So what I’m doing is I’m having my team audit; where are you spending your time. What are the tasks that are taking up your time? And then I’m having them put them into these four different buckets, so that I can get an idea so I can start building their time, their week, their jobs to be as much of this desire zone as possible, with the belief that there is somebody out there that we will add to the team at some point.

Now, that doesn’t mean that nobody does any drudgery work. It doesn’t mean that nobody touches…

Diane Sanfilippo: Right. That’s that 20% I was kind of talking about. Where, sometimes you’re just; we all have to do some of it. Yeah.

Cassy Joy: Exactly. We’re all going to have to touch on some of it. And that’s kind of what also helps us appreciate the really great work that we get to do. But how do we build out that balance on the team? And again, now this combined with the Enneagram combined with the Four Tendencies; I just think it’s a really powerful way to really help lead your team and get them into the best position possible.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love that. I feel like that’s kind of what I was trying to say without a framework. So I’m definitely going to tap into that. And I definitely notice that we have adjusted things by hiring different people who happen to fulfill different roles than maybe I even expected, and it works out even better when I get certain tasks off of someone’s plate and recognize; wow, they’re soaring as a result of that shift in responsibility when someone’s energy is just; they’re good at it but they do not like doing it. Or they don’t like doing it all.

It’s a little bit, what was, on the Fascination Advantage that we talked about the one zone where it’s like; your lowest zone. And you and I both had that one for alert, which was kind of the living and the numbers. I think that’s so funny.

Cassy Joy: {laughs} That’s the example I brought up.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. Because we just don’t; it doesn’t mean we can’t look at numbers. It doesn’t mean that I won’t go nuts helping strategize based on numbers. But it’s just, you know. I’ll get in there and it will actually become a little negative because it’s not…

Cassy Joy: it doesn’t bring joy. Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Where I want to live. It does not bring joy. Put me on a stage. That’s fun.

Cassy Joy: In a red dress.

Diane Sanfilippo: And everyone else is like; heck no. I am not going on that stage. Right?

Cassy Joy: I’m totally with you!

Diane Sanfilippo: And I think we have to recognize that. Yes, in a red dress. Of course.

Cassy Joy: I’ll be in yellow, you’ll be in red. Let’s go on tour together. Maybe I’ll still be {laughing}.

Diane Sanfilippo: Someone in green. It’s a stop light tour. Traffic light tour.

Cassy Joy: Oh my gosh. How cute is that? Let’s do it!

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing} Nobody give Cassy anymore business ideas.

Cassy Joy: Diane gave me a business idea earlier today as a joke, and I was a little mad at her {laughing} because it’s like; dang it. Now I’m thinking about that. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I know. It was a little mean. But I know that you’ll get excited about it. I think this conversation has been really good. I love chatting with you about this stuff because I always learn from you new tips and advice. I think what I love about the way that you come into these discussions is; I feel like you often land on a framework or you’ve found a book or you’ve found something that really helps to verbalize an inkling that I’ve had that I have not been able to well develop or verbalize. And I’m not able to harness the power of that because I haven’t found the framework. Because I’m not as quick to read a lot of the entrepreneurial personal development books.

It’s unfortunately not the way I learn the best. I learn it the best by just hearing you talk about it, and give me a quick explanation. I’m like; oh my gosh, I can take that and run with it. And it’s for sure a disadvantage of mine that I don’t dive into those things on my own. But I’m like; I don’t need to. I have my friend Cassy who is going to tell me all about it. And I’m going to use that with my team. I think that’s fantastic. And I can’t wait to see what we come up with where everyone’s zones are.

Cassy Joy: It’s so exciting. It’s so empowering. And even if;

Diane Sanfilippo: What’s the name of it again?

Cassy Joy: The Freedom Compass by Michael Hyatt. Freedom Compass.

Diane Sanfilippo: Everyone write that down.

Cassy Joy: And hat tip to the whole Hyatt organization; they’re just wonderful. But it is. It’s interesting. It’s one of those tool sets that you can use for work environment and for your personal life. And this is a conversation for another time. But it can be a very powerful tool between you and maybe your partner to sit down and go through this Freedom Compass. Because there might be something in your drudgery zone that your partner loves, that would be in their desire zone, and you can swap tasks and just have a more efficient, happy home.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love that. It reminds me of the Hedgehog we did working at Lululemon.

Cassy Joy: I did.

Diane Sanfilippo: Didn’t you work at Lululemon for a minute?

Cassy Joy: Yeah. Hot minute.

Diane Sanfilippo: Where you have the cross over of; what are you best in the world at. What are you passionate about? What can you make money at? And so it reminds me of that, but a little bit different. And I like it. I really like it. Awesome.

8. Tip of The Week: Freedom Compass [59:20]

Diane Sanfilippo: Tip of The Week! In this segment, we give you one tip that you can take action on this week to move your business or life forward. Cassy, why don’t you give us a tip?

Cassy Joy: Ok, so the tip. It just bubbled up in this episode. But go look into the Freedom Compass by Michael Hyatt, that framework. The book is called Free to Focus, if you’re really looking for a way to strategically organize your team and make some of these personality frameworks really actionable within a very strategic system, I think that’s going to be the tool kit you might really be excited to get your hands on. So go look it up, explore it, and see how you might be able to apply it.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s it for Driven this week. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe in Apple podcast, on Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @TheDrivenPodcast. Cassy is @FedandFit and I am @DianeSanfilippo.

Tune in next week when we’ll cover more burning business topics. We’ll see you then.